Remote Work Culture – Chris Dyer

Q: Can you tell me a little bit more about PeopleG2 and what made you start the company? Could you start from the beginning…

Yeah, we started back in 2001. So a lot of the things that I have done have been a result of some larger, you know, global event, something big happens. And so that's a time for me to go back and reflect and say is the world going to continue the way it's been going? Are we going to have something new now? So 911 happened. And for me, that was the geez, I don't like working for the person I'm working for. And I'm like working for another company, I've always wanted to start my own company. This feels like the time to do it. Now, I was probably too dumb and too young to know that I shouldn't start a new business right after a major terrorist attack, right? Like this was probably not the best time but I didn't know any better. And it all worked out. You know, fast forward to 2009, that global financial crisis occurred. Same thing, I went geez, maybe the world's gonna change? And I thought we needed to do something different. And remote work was a part of that change for us that we took the company from traditional brick and mortar where people were in offices and cubicles and it moved them to remote, under the idea that maybe this would be temporary. Maybe we would just do this for a little bit until things got better. And two weeks into being remote, every employee had called me and said, please don't ever make us go back to the office. We love this. This is great. I don't know how you thought of this, but this is fantastic! I'm not in traffic anymore, I mean, I can hang out with my dog and my cat while I'm working. I mean, that's how we realised, wow, this is the future of work! And we've been really working to improve it and to get it right ever since.

Q: Having emotional intelligence and soft skills have become very important today as a remote worker, in fact maybe more important than hard skills...not to put hard skills to the side cause they are important too but... What do you look for when hiring new remote employees? What traits are important to you as an employee to have?

Yeah, so obviously, we want people to have skills. A lot of times, though, what I'm worried about is, who are they and what is their potential? Because I can teach a lot of the skills that are important for our work to people who don't know it. So I'm not hiring doctors, and I'm not hiring lawyers, not hiring people who need to have gone to school for a very long time, or, you know, have a very specific hard skill that they've learned a lot of what I'm hiring people for, we often can just teach them later on. So we're really looking for people who want to work hard, who can be independent workers that don't need their manager standing over the top of them. Right, we look for people who can manage their time. And we look for people that really care, that cares about our clients, that cares about their fellow employee that wants to be a part of a team, you know, coming to work and getting on a video call with your five team members should be something they want to do not something they have to do. And so we look for those kinds of people that are really, you know, so weird balance, right? I'm looking for someone who's totally fine with being at home and being left alone, who then at the same time, wants to show up and be collaborative on video calls and NBN meetings when it's time to do that.

Q: What kind of characteristics do you have to have to be a strong remote leader and what can you do...or what do you need to do in order to attract these people to your company?

I think a great remote leader is someone who can throw out the old playbook. I think for most people We learn our leadership skills and our management skills from our teachers, from our parents, and maybe from a manager at our first job, right, that restaurant, that pizza shop, that coffee shop. And I would say that all of those people can teach us something, but they're not really the right people to teach us how to be a fantastic manager inside of an organisation. And more specifically, a remote organisation. You know, parents have to be a little bit more direct, don't touch the stove, where you're going to get burned, right? You have to be very command and control at very specific times, because you're a child. But that's not how we take that energy into a workplace. It doesn't work, doesn't work anywhere, but especially in remote organisations, or where there's flexible work, we start micromanaging, people are telling them to do things because we told them to, talking about why and not involving them in the conversation, right, we can expect them to act like terrible teenagers, instead of great employees. So leaders that get it right, understand that they are constantly doing one of a few things, over communicating, right, telling their people more times, I think they need to hear what's going on, why are we doing this? How is this working, what's changing? Really being that source of information, employees that don't know something, they will immediately fear the thing that, let's just say I've given you three pieces of important information, but the fourth piece has not been given to you yet. It's natural for you to worry about the fourth piece and to assume it's going to be negative and have anxiety about it, that it could affect your job or what's gonna happen. And so you tend to fill in the unknowns with things we have known from our past or experience we've had from our past, or just our fears and anxieties. So if the leader knows that fourth piece of information, they need to share it, they need to get it out there, that's part of their job. So that the team doesn't have to worry and assume it's going to be negative, they also really need to be working on trying to build the right rapport and to help their people in very limited settings. So in a traditional office, I might have a meeting with you, but I might observe that you walk over to the lunch room, and are crying and talking to a friend. I know there's something going on in your life, right, I might need to have a conversation with you. And it's appropriate to see if you're okay, we don't have that in remote work, we get off the video call, it turns off, if you're going to cry, or talk to a friend, I as your manager don't know that. And so it's very easy for us to not have these little moments to understand our people, so we have to build that intentionally. I have a really good exercise that I always teach leaders called bonding. And I could explain that to you if you'd like. But there's a specific exercise that leaders can do to recreate some of this to figure some of this out. So it's really about being more intentional, being more specific. And my job as the CEO is not the profit and loss statement. My job is not the products and services we do. My job is not to make my clients happy. People are always a bit shocked when I say that my job as the CEO is to help my people be as effective as they can, to be as productive as they can, to be as happy as they can. And they will take care of my clients and they will take care of the profit and loss and they will take care of the products and services. My job is to help them as human beings, as employee to employer and those relationships to be as best as they can. And that was one of the biggest lessons I learned with remote, I needed to do more to help them so they could help everybody else.

Q: What do leaders worry about the most when switching to a remote model and what are the things that leaders can do to create a good remote work culture that works for everyone?

Yeah, I think they worry about being able to decide if someone has done a good job, right? How am I going to evaluate this person and provide them the right feedback you know? Do they deserve a bonus, do they deserve a promotion? Should they be fired? Like how do you make these decisions when you know how you evaluated people has changed? I think leaders worry about that. Leaders worry about their people being lonely or overworking. And I think also they might worry about some of the boring and logistical things right, like, how do we pay someone in a different state or a different country? How do we deal with legal and compliance issues? And so there are other considerations for leaders, you know, how we make it a great culture, how we make a great place for them to work? I mean, it's complicated, I had to write a whole book about it, right? It's not a simple answer. But you know, if I was to give a simple answer, be super intentional, and really think out what your culture is, you need to be able to articulate it and write it down and explain it, and your people better be able to explain it back to you in their own words. So it can't be a mystery. Your culture is the norms. And it's how you get things done. It's how you meet, it's how you operate, right? It's all those little pieces of things. My co-author in the second book would argue that culture is how you feel inside the organisation. So when I disagree on that, I do think if you ask people how they feel, they're not feeling awesome inside your company, well, then I think you need to go back and look at all those smaller things that I mentioned, to really figure out your culture. But once that's done, remember, that culture, for most people, is what is happening on their immediate team. So if you're on a team of five people, maybe you're in sales, what's happening in that team, is what you think is happening in your culture. For the most part, there's a lot of studies out there that show the scores they give their team, and how they rate their team members and their manager, reflect almost identically how they rate their company and how they read their culture. So even if your culture is terrible, a great manager can have a wonderful culture inside their team. And even if their culture is awesome, they can have a terrible team and a terrible manager, right? That's an anomaly there. So I think leaders can really work hard in that small area of influence where they have to make an awesome environment for their people.

Q: You talk about Meetings in your book Remote Work and how essential they are for communication in all organisations.

b) Could you talk about the 3 fundamental meeting rules and the different kinds of meetings there are. What meeting type would you say is the best according to you and that has been working well for you and your remote team?

Yeah. So the simple answer is that meetings should always start on time. If you're not starting meetings on time, you're setting the message that you don't care about people's time, you're putting I'm more important than you are, you are correct. That is the fact about the norms, right. So if the norm is the meeting, starting late, you're gonna have a bad culture. You're also saying the message, you don't care about money. So if you're a leader, and you show up 10 minutes late to a meeting, and all those people are sitting there waiting for you, think how much money you've just wasted in paying those people to sit around and do nothing waiting for you to show up. It's a very subconscious message. But it's one that starts to permeate, the right and negative way that you don't care about their time, you don't care about the money, why should they care? The second rule is to always end meetings early. So just because we blocked out an hour or 30 minutes, doesn't mean we have to use up the whole thing, our brains will naturally want to fill up that time. It's called Parkinson's Law. This is a cognitive bias. But if we schedule two hours, let's say to clean the garage this weekend, we will take two hours to clean the garage, our brains just start moving at a certain speed and we decide what to do because we have set this amount of time to do it. Instead, if you were to trick your brain and say, I'm going to end early, I will end before that two hours. But how can I do that? I asked my family for help. I can hire a neighbor's kid to come and help me move things around. I could do less projects, you know. So there are ways to squish down the amount of work. And that really helps us be more efficient. Because how many meetings have you been on there supposed to be an hour, you're probably done in 45 minutes. And then we start talking about our kids and we start talking about other projects or other agenda items that we hadn't planned on talking about because we think well, we're all here. You might as well talk about more things. And that is a big no, no. We want to give people the gift of time. If you finish in 45 minutes for an hour meeting you say everyone go enjoy 15 minutes, go get a coffee, pet the dog, move the laundry around, go meditate. Go catch up on something important, call that client, go to something else that is going to help you be more effective today. Don't fill it up full of junk. The third really important rule for any meeting habit. People don't know why they're showing up. If you've not explicitly told them the things we’re going to be talking about, then you can expect you're going to be in more meetings after that, because..Oh, I didn't realise you needed that information. Let me get the information and we'll meet again tomorrow. Why did we even meet to begin with? Just tell me what you need in advance, and we can show up and have one meeting instead of two or three meetings about the same thing.

Now, that works for everything. Beyond that I'm a big proponent for curating different types of meetings. Not all meetings should be the same. Not all meetings should be the same length. But how do people know that? How do they know what kind of meeting they're coming to? Well, we have named these meetings and people are welcome to steal my names or make up ones of their own. But we have cockroach meetings, ostrich meetings, tiger team meetings, tsunami planning meetings, stand ups, company wide meetings, we have all these different types. And as you become an employee of my organisation, you wonder what does that mean? Well, cockroach meeting is 15 minutes long. It's one topic only. It's optional for me to attend all those other three roles we talked about. But a tiger team meeting could be an hour, it could be two hours, it could be an all day strategic event, it might be a big planning, a big issue, something really huge going on. Tsunami planning meeting is a fake meeting, where we come to practice talking about imaginary big things that maybe could happen in the future. But employees know what to expect. They know what the rules are. Are they coming to contribute? Are they coming to listen? Are they coming to convince and brainstorm. And especially in remote situation, people need more signposts more, you know, clear direction about what we're supposed to do right now, because they don't have that physical body language to understand. Imagine if you were walking into a traditional office, and there was your boss waving you into the conference room holding a pen, in front of a big board, you know, we're going to have a meeting, we're going to talk, probably brainstorm, there's something big going on, you can see that. But if your boss just calls you to a meeting with no agenda, and doesn't tell you why you're showing up, who's going to be there, you have no idea what's going to happen. And that causes employees anxiety, causes them to worry. And it also causes them to be far less effective in the meeting, because they haven't prepared, haven't done anything to be ready for the meeting. So we can help as leaders, we can help people so much. Again, I talked about this earlier, the very beginning of our talk here about how we need to over communicate as leaders, this is a way to over communicate what's going to happen so that we can have better results, and ultimately, better results in less meetings in the long run.

Q: What makes employees motivated at work and how can you maintain that motivation in the long term to keep your team happy and productive while working from home?

So we had a gentleman, Dr. Aaron Lee from Walden University came and studied our organisation for a year. And he studied other organisations as well. And what he found was that, what employees typically want in a traditional office is completely opposite from what remote employees want. So typically, in an office setting, people are very worried about their personal satisfaction, they're very worried about their professional satisfaction. All employees are concerned about those things, but they care the least about work-life balance. When people go remote, work-life balance becomes the most important part of their existence in the organisation. So we as leaders can make sure we're promoting work-life balance, making sure they're not overworking, making sure they take their vacations, making sure they're not showing up to meetings or answering emails while they're on vacation. We make employees delete all of their emails on day one when they return from vacation, all of their inbox gets deleted. Right? So they can start from zero. So they don't feel anxiety or feel like they have to go back and answer 3293 emails while they were gone for two weeks, right? So we help them create the correct space to motivate that balance. People often ask me how do you know a remote worker is working and I often write to clients saying that's not my biggest problem, my biggest problem is that they're overworking. They're doing too much. You know, they're not stopping and then going and being with family, they feel pressured to reply to an email at eight o'clock at night. And I don't want them to do that. And I have to continue to remind them that they have to create balance, and structure for themselves, when they're on, they should be on and when they're off, they should be off, and I'm okay with that. I don't need them to be accessible to me or anybody else, 24 hours a day, that's not realistic. So, motivation comes from leaders, creating, helping them create those boundaries, and they feel excited and connected and appreciative that we can do what we can to help them do their jobs well, and when they're not doing their jobs, to leave them alone. Right, and let them live their life and do their hobbies, and be good parents and all those other things that are important for their life.

Q: How does working from home affect your health and how do you train teams to maintain their wellbeing whilst working remotely?

Yeah, I think ultimately, it's better for your health, there's been a lot of studies during the pandemic that we have seen a lot of people being less stressed and spending more time working out and exercising and, you know, not sit sitting at a car or on a train or something for two hours each way. So we're seeing benefits there. We saw some bad behaviours come up during the pandemic, because people couldn't go out right, they were stuck at home. So we did see higher levels of people drinking and eating poorly and that stuff, but that kind of levelled out over time as things got better. So I think for health, they really have the opportunity for it to be a lot better, right? Someone can do the things they need to do to stay healthy, far better on their own in their own home than their own gym, than they can if the company is trying to provide some of these benefits to them, and, you know, push people to do some of these things. But there is always the concern around mental health. And so I do think leaders of companies have a responsibility to continue to check in with their team. And to continue to ask how they're doing. And to continue to evaluate and look at maybe some of the clues that someone could be overworking, someone could be, you know, not taking the time they need to, to get their mental health in line. And I mentioned that bonding exercise earlier. But we ask this question at least once a day to everybody, how are you showing up today? And if I hear if you tell me, you're doing great, you're excited for this meeting? Awesome. If you tell me that someone very close to you just passed away last night? Why are we having this meeting, like there's no way you're going to be connected, or you're going to be your best self? I'm either going to cancel the meeting as leader or I'm going to excuse you from the meeting and ask you to go and take care of yourself. That kind of emotional intelligence is what leaders have to do. And if you realise that people can't always be the best, their best selves every day. And so some days, we can lean on people to help us. Some days, we need to let them go and work on themselves or work on their situation. Of course, they show up every day, and they can't do their job. I mean, that's a different story. But in general, most people show up every day, ready to go. And they have these few days where things just aren't right. And if we can be there for them, and we can help them. Man, they just show up again, in big ways when they're ready again to do great work.

Q: In your book Remote chapter 14 about ‘’Getting Started’’ you talk about people, process, tools and technology...why have you chosen to put them in that order?...You would think that technology is the first thing you look at if you want to take your company remotely.

Yeah, so I think technology is always the last piece. It's important. It's very important. But if you don't get the people right, you have to have the right people there. I mean, I can have the best piece of software, but if the wrong people are operating it, it doesn't really matter how good that technology is. You know, I have a really good friend, one of my best friends and he works for I won't call him out but he works for this giant microscope company, okay. And he has flown all around the world to teach scientists how to use the microscope. So these scientists are the smartest in the world in their field. And they get these grants and buy these incredible microscopes to do this work and they don't know how to use the microscope. They cannot do their experiment because they don't know the technology. And the good news is he's there to bridge that gap, right? He's the person to teach them the process, that they need to be able to use the technology and to hopefully find new discoveries that will help the world. But if you don't have the right people there, none of that matters. If you don't have the right processes in place, given the thought about what's the best way to work, are we remote? Are we hybrid? You know, what are these different things that we need? We can't expect people to do their best work, right? So we have to have the right people and the right processes to show that great work, and then we can bring in technology. There's a lot, and there's always great technology out there. I've seen companies that are killing it, that are fantastic. And they have the wrong technology. They have a really terrible website. And you're like, how are you guys like number one in your industry, but they're spending more time on their people in their process? Rather than they're looking flashy, or having a super expensive piece of technology. So for me, I always start there. Because I think that's the most important way to do it.

Q: Many people are losing out on these ‘water cooler’ moments when they are not physically in the office...How can you create these ‘water cooler’ moments while working remotely? Is that something you can create virtually instead and have you managed to create this yourself? What’s your you think they are important moments to have during your day?

Yeah, so we use Slack. But whatever program people are using, we created a room called the Water Cooler. So that is where we talk about anything that's work appropriate vacations, and our kids, sports games, and grandkids and whatever is important. It's also the place where we thank each other. Or we publicly say, hey, this person did this amazing thing, or they really solved this science problem or, man, they helped me meet this deadline. And that's what we say thank you, and everyone cheers them on and congratulates them. So the room has a dual purpose that really helps us feed our culture and feed our connectivity. There is no tracking that we don't reward anybody for that, we don't give out bonuses or gift cards or anything. It's just purely an altruistic Hey, thank you for helping me or geez, I noticed you did this awesome thing. And then all of our other fun stuff that's in there. That helps us create that. But the second part that's super important is that a lot of times in a traditional office, there's a lot of one on one meetings or one on two, those little moments at the walk, you said the water cooler or the hallway or walking past someone's desk, we have a little quick conversation. And that's okay. I still don't love that in a traditional office, but it can kind of work. What happens is, people are observing behaviours, if I see that you walked over to go talk to Daniela. And I know I need to talk to Daniela, after you've talked to Daniela and now that you guys have connected, I can see that in an office. And so I can then go to talk to her. Well, in a virtual setting, a remote setting, we lose that ability. So we have to over communicate about the conversations you've had and what's happening. But I think most importantly, we need to stop having one-on-one meetings in remote companies. There are some one-on-ones that are important to you, maybe a training thing or a mentoring or human resources issue. But for the most part, 99% of the time, if we're going to have a meeting, and we're going to talk about maybe a client, who else would be impacted by that call, who else should be there who could learn from that call? Who could be impacted by that call? So what five to seven people should be there? When we do that, we recreate the wall with those water cooler moments. Because you and I went okay, we're going to talk about this client who really has this big request that we've invited three or four other people. And they're going to learn from it. They're going to pitch it. Maybe Tom is on and he doesn't really care what we decide, but he's going to ultimately have to go and change the software. But he's there to hear why we made the decision we made. Right, so that amount of information suddenly becomes so powerful. And we can recreate that water cooler by intentionally bringing more people into our quick little meetings, right on a regular basis instead of one-on-ones and having information flow disconnected to the organisation.

Q: How can you best measure your remote employees' performance? I mean, you don’t want to supervise them but you also want to have some sort of an idea on how they perform at work?

Yeah, so this is, you know, a difficult question because every job, every employee is different. So it's pretty easy to evaluate a salesperson, right? We decide on what the code is going to be, we realise what they think they should be able to sell. And that's the big number. That's our KPI. That's our goal, hey, you need to book a million dollars in new business a year. And we can see over a period of time how they're doing, and are they going to meet that goal? You take the manager of the research team, well, how do you evaluate what? What's good for them? It's a little more complicated. It's, you know, what's the quality like in their department? What's the, you know, the speed of their department, what do their employees feel about their department. And there's a lot of little variables that we can come up with. But what's important is to have that conversation with that employee. And you might know, historically, what's going to be successful for that job type, and that person, that someone else has done a good job, and we know these five things, they did well, and so the next person coming in, she will do those five things well, for us to continue to have success. But we want to have a real conversation with our employees at the start and continually having that, this is what I think success for you is, and these are the things that I'm going to judge you on as we move forward. And if we're not articulating that, then we can't expect our employees to ever reach those goals. We have to be very, very intentional. And I think most managers and most companies don't do this. They do it for sales, or they do for some jobs that it's really easy to do it for. But for the average person, we don't and so you end up judging people on what they are at work? How much did they walk around? How many meetings? Are they in? How much paper is wrestling? You know, how much did they laugh at my jokes, or tell me I look nice today and you know, brown nose up to me. Those aren't good. Eric ways to judge someone's performance or It's politics, right? It's who goes out to have a beer with the boss after work. And that kind of thing is helping them move ahead. And that's a terrible way to manage your people. This is the unfortunate part about remote work, I think remote work is better. And you will have a better company and a better culture, but you have to do more work at the start. You have to be more intentional at the beginning. And so these are some of the things you have to be more intentional with, one of the five of the 10 things at this position has to do be done and they need to be big. And to your point, then we let people go and do well. And we check in with them. How are you doing? And if you're not doing well, then we can look at more specific things. If the salesperson for example, if I say your code is this, and we check in every month, and it looks like you're on your way, you're doing what we expect, you should reach your goal by the end of the year. I don't need to worry about what you're doing with your time. But if you're not meeting your goal, then I might say well, how many calls are you making? And how many emails are you sending? And how much? You know, how much time are you spending prospecting and taking out who clients could be your referral, then we could get into micromanaging. We talked a little bit more specifically about their day if they're not meeting their goals. But if they are, I can leave them alone. Right? If my salesperson can meet their goal, at the same time, go golfing every day. Okay, you know, I don't care.

Q: A large number of companies are thinking of turning to a hybrid model post-pandemic and if I’m not wrong...this is even harder to implement within a company. So why do companies choose hybrid rather than remotely when it’s obviously harder to create? Is it a matter of trust, fear or do they think the collaboration will be better?

Yeah, I mean, it's a lot of things. And it does depend on the company. But I think a lot of companies are choosing hybrids because they know remote works. They know there's some benefits, and they know their people really want it. So they're willing to compromise, right? So they say, well, there's some things we have to do in person, which may not be true, but they still think that they're still this will we have to be together, they have to be these water cooler moments. And so they're trying to keep those by having people come in a few days a week. I think there's also some old management happening, where they're like, well, I'll let you work from home two days a week, but I want to see you the other three, I want to see that you're really here. Right? I still need to, to evaluate your performance by how many hours you are sitting at your desk. Or how enthusiastically you act in meetings or whatever. I mean, it's sort of silly. But there are other companies and other jobs where you do really have to be together. I mean, if you're a scientist and you're creating these new things, I mean, you may need to be in the lab, you may need to be, you know, together, there may need to be salespeople who are selling these new experiments, or these new products may have to be seen, to touch them, to play with them to understand them. So there are these opportunities where we do really need to be together. In certain organisations, I'm fortunate that none of my people ever need to be together for any reason ever. But that's not true for every company. So if they're doing it, because it really is what they need, then it's better than nothing. If they're doing it, because they're holding on to their old industrial revolution management practices. And this is just some sort of a compromise. The future is unknown, we'll see what's going to happen with that, right? Will employees really battle and push for more time and at home? Or flex? Or will this be a fad for that company, and eventually, they'll move everybody back. So we've seen companies like Deloitte just yesterday said they will allow remote work forever. Facebook has said they're gonna miss a lot of companies, Apple is having huge fights right now, they're trying to do the hybrid thing, and they're having huge internal struggles over this. So this is it. You can get your popcorn ready, this is going to be a good one to watch.

Q: Where do you see the remote industry going over the next 5 years?

Definitely will expand, it's definitely going to happen more. And hopefully, more employees will realise the benefits to them to continue to advocate for this. You know, one of the big areas that companies didn’t, our employees did not really get a chance to understand was, if you had children at home, if you had other people living in your home, because of the pandemic, your remote work experience may not have been as good as it's going to be when those people leave the home or their kids go back to school, right. And you have peace and quiet for 6, 8, 10 hours a day, right, when the kids are gone, or the family members are gone at their jobs. And so that for me, that's always been the one of the best things about remote work was I had big blocks of time of silence, no one bothering me, no one coming in interrupting me, nobody asking me to fix this thing, or help them make lunch or whatever. Right. And so that most people have not had that yet. Somehow, but most people have other people in their homes that are interrupting them and disrupting them and making noises and things. And so when that happens, I think they're gonna like, wow, this is really powerful. So there is a lot of that happening. I'm also hopeful that organisations will realise that they can keep key people by allowing them to live somewhere else, and that they can recruit really key people. So I always struggled. I'm in Orange County, California, Orange County, LA. We have really, you know, a lot of people working here, but it's a very competitive employment market. As soon as we got remote, we could suddenly start hiring people from all around the country for less money, who were fantastic employees whose cost of living was lowered in some other state or some other city. And so I think that employers may start realising, I cannot find a vice president of marketing here in Los Angeles, but I can find a fantastic vice president of marketing in Idaho, or Kansas, or wherever it is. And they don't cost me as much. I have to let them work from home. Right. And maybe they need to come in the office a few times a year and I just pay to fly the man that's less expensive than I would have paid for the more expensive person in this market where I'm at. So there are some real benefits to employers and meeting their challenge goals. Having people in different parts of the country to maybe service their clients better. And so those organisations that are innovative, those organisations that are progressive, those organisations that are looking for that extra tool, that extra little advantage, remote work is that advantage for them, and we'll see who takes it. It's gonna be a wild ride I think in the next five years.

Q: And if people are interested in buying your book, Remote Work, and wants to learn a little bit more about it, where can they find it?

Well, wherever you buy books online you can find it, so Amazon is a pretty good choice in most countries. I know bow and some other one around the world so wherever you buy your books online there should be a copy there. If you can’t find it there you always go to the And if none of those work you always contact me And let me know and I can try to figure out how to get you a copy.

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