Remote Work is Changing The Recruitment Industry

E: Hi everyone, I’m Erika from Remote Worker, the UK’s leading job board for remote working professionals. Today I’m joined by Jack Kelly. Jack is the CEO, founder, and executive recruiter at one of the oldest and largest global search firms, The Compliance Search Group. He is passionate about advocating for job seekers and has therefore created a social media platform, Wecruitr, with a mission to make job search more enjoyable. You may also have seen him as the Senior contributor at Forbes where he shares, in my opinion, great insights regarding employment and much lately about remote work and how large companies are preparing for the upcoming months!

E: Thank you very much for joining me today!

J: Oh, thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. And I'm delighted to speak with you, Erika.

E: So, Jack, I would like to ask you a few questions to understand a bit more about how remote work is affecting the recruitment industry, the job market, job seekers but also why companies are not embracing remote work as much as we hope they would.

Q: Could you tell me a little bit more about your recruitment background, where did you start off in your career and why are you so passionate about advocating for job seekers?

That's a really good question. It's interesting. Up until the pandemic, you know, I've never worked remotely. And even if it was, let's say, a snowy day or inclement weather, when I was home, it was just so hard to do. It's just so hard to do. I just couldn't get into the zone, I didn't feel comfortable. And, you know, it's just an alien concept. And I think I speak for a lot of people here in the US. There were people working remotely, but it was just such a small amount. And, you know, as a recruiter, I specialise in placing mid to senior executives primarily on Wall Street. And in that space, there were very few people who worked remotely fast forward to the pandemic. And to me, it was like the greatest experiment ever, remote work. You know, it wasn't meant to be this way. But what happened is that over a year and a half, we made this to try to see, does it work? And to me, it worked phenomenally well, if you look at companies like Amazon, Apple and Microsoft, just different nominal business, the stock prices went through the roof, people felt comfortable with remote work, they got their lives back, they didn't have to schlep into a big city taking an hour and a half each way, they were able to spend more time with their spouse, with their partner, with their kids, you know...get involved with their hobbies, it just made such a world of a difference. And you can see people enjoyed it more. So now, once here in the US, we were really close to my opinion being over, I was kind of referring to what I was writing, post pandemic, you know, I'm an optimistic guy. So I'm thinking we're done. It's over, it's behind us. They lo and behold, you get this, get this delta variant. And all of a sudden, it looks like everything's changing again. And it puts us in a place where, what are we doing? And we're seeing a lot of companies revisiting all their plans. Whereas they were starting to say, Hey, we need you to come back to the office, maybe in September, maybe we're gonna have a hybrid model. Now they’re pushing it back a month. And then who knows? Because now we're looking at the whole Greek alphabet that could come down right afterwards. So we're heading towards a weird time.

Q: What impacts have you seen Remote Work have on hiring demand and talent acquisition?

It's really interesting. Because one side of the narrative is from a lot of companies, oh, yeah, remote work, remote work. As a recruiter. When I speak to people to hiring managers at HR. More often than not, they're like, well, hmm, Jack, do you think you could find somebody who lives in an area because we really would like to have somebody come in? And then usually I'll follow up. Alright, let's say you're the hiring manager. Erika, I'll be like, okay, Erika. So when you say come in, what does that mean? Two days? A week, three days a week. And then they're like, well, five.

Like, wait, what happened to remote work? What are you doing? This is it you know, this is the game plan.

So to me there's a disconnect, because, you know, when I think news outlets get in touch with these companies and say, Hey, what are you going to do? I think they feel it's the right thing to say oh hybrid meeting two or three days a week in the office or remote. But then when you are one on one for the job, I'm telling you more often than not, it's because they want you in the office. So it's a really weird, you know, it's a really weird gap. And then on top of that, Erika, every, I would say, about 90% of people I speak with on a daily basis want remote work? I don't think I may come across someone saying, yeah, I want to go into the office. It's so rare. It's so rare. So it's gonna be interesting to see how it's playing out. And you're asking about why, you know, I'm advocating for you because it works. You know, it works. And if it makes people's lives better, and they can be productive, why not let them do it?

E: Definitely, if it works, and they feel like they're more productive when working from home and it gives the company better results and they feel much better with themselves, why not let that person just continue with remote work? You know.

J: I think what happens is this. Also, you have this whole level of middle management. And I don't want to cast any aspersions and make a generalisation about any generation. But I think what happens, you have middle management, and then you have these baby boomers, who spent the last 30 years commuting into a big city, being in the office for eight hours a day, commuting home. And to be fair to them. If you do something for 3040 years, it's hard to then say, okay, Forget it, forget all that we're going to do this new thing, even though the new thing showed it was successful. It's so hard to think about any little habit, how hard it is to break and think about how these people were doing it one way forever. Then I wonder too, and this is going to sound kind of crass. Erika, I wonder too, for some people who are middle managers and managers, that's their thing, watching over people bossing people around, you know, shutting down the hallway thinking they're the big dog. And they're so important. And they can kind of bark orders at everybody. But now if they're at home, on their kitchen table working, and there's no one around to give orders to their whole identities, God, they feel naked, like alright, what do I do now? Think about it, to get to the top of all these organisations, you have to have this drive, you know, to be the Alpha man or the alpha woman and get to these places. So you're driven, you're motivated, you're aggressive, you're hardcore. You're throwing people under the bus around you to get to where you want to go. Right. And now you're managing the whole, you know, you're CEO, a big executive, managing everybody. And if you lose that, because you're not seen and they're not there, that's a big hit.

E: Definitely. Okay, who are you then? You know, if you're not managing?

J: Exactly. And then I wonder, as this goes on, your company starts saying, why do we need certain people? Like, why do we need these mid level managers? Hmm, I mean, it's working pretty fine without. So they start thinking, are they really necessary? So these people will fight for their jobs because they don't want to lose their jobs. We gotta bring everybody back to the office. Yes, overboard. Why? Because they want to keep their jobs, their job is managing a group of people. And if they're not doing it, then what are they gonna do?

So somebody's got to look like it's self serving. I wrote a lot about this in Forbes over the pandemic while Facebook, Microsoft, Apple, Google, were all talking about it. And Amazon is talking about remote work. All of them were buying new buildings, leasing new properties, rehabbing existing ones. So on one side, they're saying, Yeah, you can work from home, don't worry about it. On the other hand, they're building amazing places. You know, like Google has this amazing place, at their headquarters. They have TPS outside, you can roast marshmallows, you have big screen TVs. It's amazing. Amazon is building this second headquarters down to Virginia, that's going to be huge and fantastic with dog parks and greenery. So they spent so much money on these places. They have no choice but to need the people to come back. Because if you bought it, you're leasing it, you have all these big obligations. And if you're only having a small portion of the people coming back, that's a colossal waste of money. So it's almost like a dollars and cents issue where these companies put out so much money, so much time and so much effort in their real estate. If they then say to everybody, you know what, stay remote forever, what do you do with the buildings, and then think about Erika, if all this happens to all these companies, then who else is going to sublet these places, so they're stuck with it. So the way to make good on all the real estate they have, they almost have to push people to come back.

E: Exactly. And I mean, we can even see now a lot of remote workers out there are taking pay cuts because they don’t want to go back to the office. And even though we've seen a lot of CEO’s bribing their employees, we give you free breakfast, free lunch and stuff. ‘’Sorry, no. It's not working. I'm not giving that up’’. So you know, we can see more remote workers say they want to work from home and that they can’t bribe them, it doesn't matter if you give me a standard nice breakfast, this little nice lounge, you know, when it's not gonna work. Obviously they need to kind of rethink their models. And a lot of people just do not want to come back to the office.

J: And a big thing, Erika, that is in the favor of workers is a high job market. Now, if it wasn't a high job market, it'd be very easy for the companies to say, hey, you get back here right now, Erika and Jack you get in! And then if we don't have choices, what are we going to do? We're going to have to suck it up and go in because it's not a good job market. But now it's a pretty decent job market, at least here in the US. Workers have the ability to say no, we're not going to go back if you make me. I'm going to find another job or I'm going to quit. I don't know how it goes in the UK. But here, they were giving enhanced unemployment to people. So some people made as much as they were while working, by not working. So then they could say, Hey, I'll just ride out the unemployment till I figure out what to do next, rather than going in. So the workers have more power right now to dictate the terms.

E: And I think that's amazing. I mean, we should, we've been working from home for such a long time and adapted to this very much and changed our lives, some have changed their lifestyle, so it is important for them to continue. And as I say, like some people just can't go back because they've changed their lives dramatically by moving maybe and it's just going to be too far to commute, too expensive. So they really want to push to stay home.

J: And there's some really valid reasons, because think about it, let's say you're a working mother, and you have young children. And here in the US, now you have to start worrying about schools closing again, like they did during the pandemic, it becomes so hard to juggle your job, taking care of children. I don't know if you know anybody who has kids who do these classes, take them around, like, they're not that great, you don't work. So then you actually have to serve as a teacher, to make sure your kids don't fall way behind. That 800,000 working moms during a period, I forgot it was like a two or three month period, just left the job market because it was too hard for them. It was impossible to balance everything. Which is a shame.

E: Yeah, exactly. As you say, we build habits and we have certain routines we have set up for ourselves that we're used to. And a lot of people have built up these routines while they’ve been working from home. Maybe these routines are making me feel much better, my mental health is much better, I'm less stressed, less anxious, and I am more productive. And what I feel companies should do, which is focus more on the results, and not just now be in the office supervising and I need to see that you're writing on your laptop, I need to see you go and talk to people, you know, that kind of supervising. Look at the results, I mean if I reach my goal it doesn't matter what I do in the afternoon. What I do those hours, you know, doesn't really matter because I've already reached my goal for the day. So more results focused companies.

J: That's really important because you have more control over it, because everyone has their own kind of biorhythms for the day. For me, I like waking up early, and getting a good start. But then towards the end of the day, I'm like, sure. As far as going downhill and I'm not having my coffee, It’s going bad. So why would you make somebody be in the office? Right? Let's say if they're, you know, not a morning person, why make them go work first thing in the morning when they just can't think straight? Nothing's happening in the first few hours, or conversely, let's be honest, how many times by four o'clock. Everybody's just like looking at their watch. You know, doing the countdown, just surfing the internet. And it's like, it's a farce. And everyone knows we're doing it, we all know each other's daily. It's silly.

E: I know. And this is what I mean. More results focused instead of being there in the office nine to five. Instead this is what I need to do before I go home. And if I do that, within four hours, then why should I sit there four more hours? Because I've already done my work, instead of just looking at the watch and social media.

J: Exactly, I think you're so right, because I also think people are more productive, because they know, hey, if I come in, and I know, here's what I have to do for the day. And if I could get that done by three o'clock, and I can get home and beat the traffic. Why not? That's great.

E: Yes, why not? You’ve done your job. You have reached those goals. Why should I just be there? Just to be there? You know?

J: Yes, I'm sure you go through this, you have some days, let's say everything's going right, but then whatever pops up. If you're home, it's easy to step outside, take a walk, maybe I could ride my bike, maybe I'll go to the gym, maybe I'll just do whatever to clear my head, come back, and then work a little later. I'll get it done later. But you can't do that in the office. If you're in the office, you can't say, Hey, Erika, I think I'm going to go outside and just walk around for half an hour in the park. You’d be like, what? And I’m, Why not? I mean, I have a mental block from what I'm doing. I can't really focus, I just need some fresh air. Which is, if you really think about it, the most logical thing to do, but in the office, you're just you have to be stuck in there. Which makes no sense. No, it makes no sense. That's why, in addition to being remote, I'm a kind of big advocate now, and again, I never thought this way before because I grew up like Alright, get a job, you go into the city, you have to do all these things. Now, It's like, wait, Oh, you don't? Like you said, results based work instead of the nine to five. Hey, if you get it done by four o'clock, three o'clock, why not staggered hours. So if you have young children, you have to drop them off at school, pick them up at different hours, there's so many different alternatives that companies could start doing that's helpful

E: That would just benefit, being flexible in that way and helping as you say, mothers who have kids and you know, need to juggle this around or a kid is sick, having the opportunity to work from home and take care of your kids and not lose out on those workdays, you know, it’s amazing, it’s beneficial for everyone. And obviously, the workers, the people who have this flexibility are more productive and want to do a good job for their company, because they are taking care of them. So I just see this as beneficial for both sides.

Q: Data is showing that the rise in Remote Job listings is not meeting the demand for remote work. Job postings made in 2020 were mostly in the low remote sectors where hiring we’re not work from home jobs, but rather jobs that support the stay at home economy. This has obviously affected the number of people being able to apply and find fully remote jobs.

a) Why do we see companies doing this when they claim to be open to remote work?

I think there's, you know, as we talked about before, I think there's a lot of managers who just can't change their mind about it, they're digging in their heels. Hey, it's always been this way. It always has to be this way. This is it. There's no alternatives. And there's so many who kind of keep pushing that narrative. You could see how they’re like, yes, it's remote, but they're scared to go all in on it. You could just say they're afraid to commit to saying, hey, let's do it. And because I think, for them, it's easier to say, hey, we've always done it this way. Let's keep doing this. And as we were talking about, they have all this real estate, they want to use it. So they feel like Alright, we got to push people in. At the same time, it's almost like they dangle a carrot. Because they know if they push too hard. And this is what's interesting and good about capitalism is that, let's say Company A is pushing to go with remote work, and you're working for them. But company B's gonna say you know what, what we'll do, we'll go completely remote. So we could siphon all the best talent from all the other places. And we'll get the best talent because they want to work remotely. So I think that's what we'll see playing out, you will have these companies who are just going to say, hey, we'll dabble in remote. Or maybe you could do remote work from home two days a week, three days a week. But then you have other companies that are gonna do the opposite, they're going to capitalise it, they're gonna say, hey, come to us. We're cool, we'll do it remote. And they'll pick up the best and the brightest talent.

Q: In recent months, a large number of people have quit their jobs and are searching for Remote work, after being asked to go back to the office, and this is very understandable as many of us have redesigned our lives, some have moved, some have realised they’re not as productive in the office as they are at home or they have other priorities now.

a) How important do you think embracing remote work is for employee retention? Cause I mean...It can’t be good that employees are quitting their jobs?

You know, it's really interesting, I would say this, and companies don't do enough of it, they should actually read instead of saying, here's what we want you to do, kind of find out what they want. Go to the employees, and just ask, maybe have internal surveys, you have focus groups, just ask them and say, hey, what would you prefer? What would make your life better? Would it be remote? Would it be hybrid? Would it be something we never even thought about, and reach out to them? Because I would hazard a guess, I would bet. If companies would reach out to their people, and try to determine, hey, what works best for you, what would make your life better, what would make you happy, and then being able to deliver on it. Now, maybe they can't deliver 100%. But they can deliver, let's say, 80%, you're gonna have a very loyal workforce, because they're going to be appreciative, if let's say, you and I work together, and they allow you to do what you want to do, and me to do what I want to do. We're gonna be like, I love this place. I'm going to be loyal, I'm going to be hard working because I want to keep this job because they really care about me. They're empathetic. They care about what I think and what's best for me. And who doesn't want to work for a place that really treats their people with dignity, respect, instead of telling you, you know, you have to do it this way and not giving you a choice. So, yeah, I think we're gonna see these things play out over time.

Q: Transitioning to remote work is far easier for employees who have already developed social capital in the workplace and know how a company operates. The fresh, young members of the workforce miss out on those valuable skills and opportunities if they can't come back to the office, like mentoring and community.

a) How can this be reciprocated in a remote work environment and what do Managers and CEOs need to do to achieve this?

So for this, now, I'm a big hypocrite. So I'm going to talk exactly the opposite of what I said before. I think for young people, you know, Gen Z's, and let's say younger millennials. I would definitely suggest for them to go into an office. But it's interesting, I was just writing about something, a study that Gen Z's and young millennials don't want to go back to work. But I always suggest they should. Here's my rationale. You're starting out your career, you don't know what to do in the workforce, all you did is go to school, and maybe had a part time job. Also, if you go to a university, that's, let's say, a nationwide University, there's a big chance all your friends now are all over the place. So now, you have to kind of start all over again, you want to build up a friend network, but you also want to build up a work network. So the best way I think is for you to go to the office, and this way, you start meeting new people, you kind of build out your social network, your work network, you have people to go out for lunch with, for dinner, drinks after work, maybe have weekend plans. You go to each other's houses, for birthday parties, whatever the case may be, now you've kind of built that foundation plus influence. So you have a hybrid, Erika, and you only have two or three days in the week that you’re going to the office, so you have a better chance to get noticed, because instead of having, let's say in whatever division. Instead of having 30 people there, maybe there’s only seven or eight. And now you're the boss, Erika, you're gonna see me, you're gonna see what I do, we're going to interact more, I could find you to be my mentor. So I could kind of learn and grow, those kinds of things that can take years to do if you have a good mentor who can kind of help you out right away and guide you to the right path. So for them, that's so beneficial, because they're going to learn more, and they're going to get more notice, they're going to be seen. So it's worth the trade off, even if it's not five days a week. Yeah, for those I would definitely say, three, four days a week. Just think about how people are, let's say, we have this important meeting. And there's just, you know, there's 10 of us in the office. And usually it'd be like 30, or 40, it would be easier for us just to have that conversation ourselves than to start, all right, let's go in an office, let's get on a zoom call, let's find where Joe and Jane is, and where's this other person, and let's dial them in. The reality is that you're not going to pay attention and you're not going to focus on who's there. So if you're that young person, and you're there with mid to senior level people, you're gonna just see your career skyrocket. So that's what I would say to those people who feel they're lost, who, despite their age, maybe they felt overlooked. And they can't get their career to that next step. That might be an approach to say, you know what, I'll go to the office, because the same thing I mentioned about younger people, we all go through that with careers and jobs, where sometimes you hit a wall, and you're not going anywhere. But then you know, when you're at home... it is going to be harder to be seen and noticed. So you might as well go into the office, get noticed and maybe to catch a break.

Q: During the pandemic, and because of the pandemic, millions of people have lost their jobs and are unemployed, and this is of course a massive problem...some haven’t been able to work at all and it leaves them with a big gap in their CV’s...Things are changing and it’s getting tougher to achieve in a post-pandemic world.

a) What do job seekers need to do at this time to succeed?

That's a big problem. The long term unemployment is this really large percentage, there are millions of people here in the US. I think the Department of Labor has like, that 27 weeks is considered long term unemployment. And there's discrimination against people who have had bad work for a while. Then we talk about all sorts of other discriminations, but when you're out of work for a while, companies definitely kind of question, like, why did you not find a job in the last three, four or five, six months, and they then feel it's my fault or your fault. What did you do wrong, you had to do something wrong? And it's rough. So the way to overcome it, I would say, for people who are in big roles, you have to find things to do to put on the resume, whatever it is, you know, maybe you volunteered, maybe you took a gig kind of job, maybe you did some consulting work, maybe you're writing or taking care of a sick relative, you want to fill it up. So it shows you've done something. But then also, what you want to do is really network like crazy. You want to find, not just send out resumes, but you want to find people who work at the company you want to work at and get in touch with them. You want to find out, hey, Erika works at this company. I want to work in this company. It is my dream company, hey, you know, get in touch with Erika, it could be through LinkedIn, it could be easy. Send a note that you’d to work there. Can we talk? Yeah, it's a numbers game. You know, a lot of people aren't going to bother, because that's how people are. But for every 10, maybe one or two might say Sure. Let's talk, let's see how we could help. Or you find somebody who knows somebody who works at a company, and you say, Hey, can you get my resume in front of them? Can you get me in there? So I think for the people who have been out of work for a while, you have to fight back, you have to have stuff on the resume. So it shows you're doing something, and you have to really use that time to network and try to get in front of the right people. So you can catch that break.

Q: This year has been really challenging for most of us, but it has also been a great opportunity to reinvent ourselves. How do you think the pandemic has changed us as human beings and what do you think we’re coming out of this with?

It's a great question. Both personally and professionally. There's so many people who've told me that they're looking at their jobs, and saying they don't want to do this for the next three, 510 years. That realisation hits. I don't mean to get too serious about it. But as you were saying, you know, people, so many people have died from COVID. So many people were sick and really bad, sick. And then you start realising, wow, life is short, it's precious. This is the only run I got at it. So do I want to keep being a tax accountant for the rest of my life? Or maybe I want to find something more meaningful, something with purpose. And there's so many people who are kind of doing that now. And I think that's a contributing factor with this whole great resignation thing, particularly in places like food service, where people say, Hey, you know, I'm a waiter, I'm a waitress, I get treated rudely, by all the customers, you know, I don't make that much money. There's not a lot of growth. What am I doing with my life? But you know, what the heck with this, let me quit. Let me just try something new. So I think this is a time where a lot of people are reinventing themselves. They're figuring out what they really want? What's my purpose? You know, what can I do that's meaningful? How can I do something where I feel good about what I'm doing? And I see that a lot in the decisions they're making where people will forgo money for something they really want, and they feel good about it. And that I think is a good trend, because it makes them really focused on what's important in life.

E: Definitely. And I think that's been a huge, how do you say, remote work has helped people to be more collaborative, you know, wanting to help each other and thinking of solutions rather than problems. We've been isolated within lockdowns, all this pandemic. And I think from that, when everything's opening up, obviously, all the people are very happy that things are opening up where we can go out and work and meet people, that kind of stuff. But just seeing that collaboration has become something that's important. And it's not like managers work on their own. Now, when it comes to remote work, they're working very closely together with their employees and are getting seen for their work instead of having a manager wandering around sitting in the office. Now actually, the manager or the CEO is there talking or in a meeting with people who are seeing them and so on. So it's the collaboration part and wanting to help each other. It's something that I've seen a lot of recently with remote work and it’s because of the pandemic.

J: Yeah, there's a hunger for just getting out of the house and being with people. For instance, we went out to eat last night on a Wednesday, and things were packed like wow, just seems kind of odd, you know, in the suburban place. You're not totally in a big city. And then you realize everywhere you go lately, there's just so many people out and about because they just want to be around others, they want to just get the heck out of their homes. They're human beings, you know?

E: We are and we should be allowed to be around people, you know, and learn stuff from each other. And so just to wrap up this little interview here with you. I have one last question.

Q: What do you think the work world will look like in the near future? Where do you think we’re heading?

I think in the short term, we're going to have some back and forth. I'll just talk about the US because I know better because I'm here. With the Delta variant, it definitely threw a curveball. In my opinion, I thought...we’re done. And no politicians are saying, hey, yep, we're done. But you have to judge for yourself. Now with the Delta variant. It's like, it throws another wrinkle of like, Alright, it looks like we're gonna be dealing with this. And I was like, I'm not a scientist, or doctor, I'm just some knucklehead guy, right? I'm thinking that this is going to be something we're gonna have to deal with, like the flu, chickenpox, cancer and other things. And the sooner we realize that and figure out, hey, this is gonna be with us, we just got to figure out how to deal with it along the way, like adults, responsible adults, and not panic about it, not shame people about their decisions, you force people to do things, but really look at the science, not pretending to look at it, like, when it serves your purposes, and figure out what to do. And if we could do that, then we could kind of be successful and get out of it. And it's gonna stop, because we're still going to have people getting sick and people are going to die. But then people die of diabetes, people die of getting hit by a car, people die all the time.

It's weird, we just take this one piece and say, oh, no one could die from this. Yeah, that's not realistic, we got to grow up. And you know, a lot of times we don't want to be grownups and talk about reality, people dying is terrible. And it's awful. And we can't pretend that, you know, it's not going to happen. So we have to find a way where we can live our lives and move forward and do it. And, you know, three, four weeks ago, I thought we would be there. And now I think it's going to take a little longer. And the wildcard is this arrogance, if then another variant comes up and everyone goes into a panic again, and another, this could keep going on. Unless eventually collectively say, you know what, let's come to terms, we have to live with it, like we have to live with, you know, heart disease, cancer, all sorts of other horrible things. And, just be smart about the people who are the most vulnerable, taking care of them.

And if you're not there overall, and you can go to work and do stuff, great. And then things could just kind of fall back, you know, go back to this new different world. And then hopefully, as the work world is, companies will be more open minded, that you could work remotely, you'd work staggered hours, you could have, I forgot how you positioned it. But the way you use the term results, I think there's something like results oriented work that if you could get it done by a certain time then you could leave. And that would be good. And I think it would be great for the mental health of people, reduce stress, because how many times do people have to race into the office, come in late, feel stressed because they had to drop their kid off at school or vice versa. And we could do away with it. So people can be more relaxed, less mental and emotional issues, they'll be happier and they're happy to be more productive, they're going to do well and the company is going to do well. So I'm hoping that's what's going to happen out of all this, if I could see a bright spot. People would realize, hey, there's a better way to do this thing. And it can make the companies do well and profitable and people being happy and successful at what they're doing. And that's what I'm kind of hoping for. And that's kind of what I'm writing a lot about. I like to look at the positives. Lord knows there's enough people who just all they do is doom and gloom, end of the world and scare tactics and fear mongering.

E: I agree with you. I think we need more optimistic people who are positive, what you're reading and listening to needs to be more positive. I just think it's been a lot of fear based stuff the recent years and it’s just dividing us right now really.

J: Exactly. It's because you know what? It sells! Let's say, you read a newspaper, a headline, it says, Hey, things are going nicely. Yeah. But like, Oh, no, you know, little kids are dying. You're like, wow, let me read this. It's set up that way. Fear, hate and anger is what gets the attention then of people who try to have a more reason, conversation like we're having...It doesn't make the big headlines.

E: Exactly, I totally agree with you. I really hope we're heading for a bright future!

J: Well, you're part of the change, which is good. It's like what you're doing, you're offering a platform for people who say, Hey, I don't want to have to hike into, you know, a city every day, I want an alternative and good for you, because you're part of it. And I see a lot of people who are doing that, who are saying, hey, let me do it instead of complaining, let me do something that's better. And you're doing your examples. That's awesome. And good for you. I'm proud of us.

E: Thank you. Yeah, I think it's amazing to follow this kind of process, you know, see everything developing and where we're heading. And you know, I still think we’re kind of in the norming phase, some companies don't know what to do, what's best, you know, they're still trying to figure out things. But I really do think until after the end of the year, hopefully, I think a lot of stuff will be in its place, and we kind of know where we are heading and what we want and that kind of stuff, if something new doesn't come up when we get in total lockdown again. But I mean, work from home will be a perfect opportunity there. If there is a lockdown. Again, I think from those lockdowns happening or gonna happen, it's gonna just make more companies think they need to transition to remote work.

J: Absolutely. Yeah. So I think you're in a good spot. I think what you guys are doing is great. So good luck. And it was a pleasure speaking to you. Thank you for having me.

E: It was great to have you and great talk. And thank you so much.

J: My pleasure. Anytime, Erika. And Yo, we can always follow up in like six months, hopefully things are good. We’re like..Yeah! Exactly...If it's not good, then we'll wait a few more months.

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